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petemac

26 Jan 2009, 4:45 pm

Box model and master pages

Hello all,

I know I’m not unique in trying to fathom the “box model” construction to avoid a site being wrecked once someone starts increasing text size in their browser. I’ve grappled with the basics (thanks to Dan Jasker’s vids) and overall can get a working result - after the headache. However, I’m really missing the master page function which doesn’t seem to allow box model pages to automatically update (or is it the other way round?).

Is the box model the only way to combat the menace of increased text size? Is there a way to make master pages that update their box model slaves automatically (tried the Simple Include action which I didn’t find simple or Inclusive - no doubt my error)? I love the master page system for its ability to swiftly apply blanket changes. Is there any consensus on the basic problem of creating a flexible layout or do many of you ignore it?

David Owen

26 Jan 2009, 5:33 pm

Hi Pete,

The box model is not just for increased text size issue. But also when producing dynamic sites where the designer does not know ultimately how much text is to be included in the final page. Pushing footers down and the like. Thus making a page design flexible for just about every possibility by using the box model. And I think there is also quite bit of designer kudos in making sites this way ;-). But It can be done with tables.

Unfortunately the Master pages don’t work well with full box model pages as each element is inline. The benefits can start when you use CSS styles to manage the box model rather than Master pages, but then it becomes less Freeway like. But the div box content still does not update from master pages.

Lets hope Softpress find a sensible way forward to approach this problem of Master pages and box model.

I do think its very much worth you designing and learning how the box model works and CSS together. Nearly all the site we do are this way, all or in part. As a result I ignore Freeways Master pages, and make php includes instead for frequent content.

At least if you know both ways of working, you can make a better informed decision which one to use for a site, and where in it.

David

On 26 Jan 2009, at 17:45, petemac wrote:

Is the box model the only way to combat the menace of increased text size? Is there a way to make master pages that update their box model slaves automatically (tried the Simple Include action which I didn’t find simple or Inclusive - no doubt my error)? I love the master page system for its ability to swiftly apply blanket changes. Is there any consensus on the basic problem of creating a flexible layout or do many of you ignore it?

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Bin-Ra

26 Jan 2009, 7:26 pm

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Yes I don’t like to =8Cpromote=B9 the old table way of doing things =AD but in many ways its seems an easy way to get to some of these things until the whole CSS positioned and nested approach is grasped. Walter and others used to be famous for the howto of liquid flexible design in Freeway using table= s =AD but I don’t know if that kind of information is readily available or not. But the wind blows different now =AD and there=B9s as much kudos in table based approach to web sites now as maybe buying a Mac in 1998. (that=B9s when I cam= e in ;-)

But it also depends on what you want and what you want it for.

I do have the sense that because everyone talks and assumes the way to go i= s CSS positioned and sometimes including box model layout =AD that newbies coming in don’t know that they can just do simple things that simply work with tables. I think its different if seeking commercial web design work. To be seen as working in table based mode may be seen as backward and unacceptable to those who for whatever reason do not want table based layout.

But not everyone wants to know how their site is served =AD some just want it to work and to feel good about it and not take more of their budget than it has to.

all the best Brian

David Owen said recently:

Hi Pete, =20 The box model is not just for increased text size issue. But also when producing dynamic sites where the designer does not know ultimately how m= uch text is to be included in the final page. Pushing footers down and the l= ike. Thus making a page design flexible for just about every possibility by us= ing the box model. And I think there is also quite bit of designer kudos in making sites this way ;-). But It can be done with tables. =20 Unfortunately the Master pages don’t work well with full box model pages = as each element is inline. The benefits can start when you use CSS styles = to manage the box model rather than Master pages, but then it becomes less Freeway like. But the div box content still does not update from master p= ages. =20 Lets hope Softpress find a sensible way forward to approach this problem = of Master pages and box model. =20 I do think its very much worth you designing and learning how the box mod= el works and CSS together. Nearly all the site we do are this way, all or in part. As a result I ignore Freeways Master pages, and make php includes instead for frequent content. =20 At least if you know both ways of working, you can make a better informed decision which one to use for a site, and where in it. =20 David =20 =20 =20 On 26 Jan 2009, at 17:45, petemac wrote: =20

Is the box model the only way to combat the menace of increased text siz= e? Is there a way to make master pages that update their box model slaves automatically (tried the Simple Include action which I didn’t find simpl= e or Inclusive - no doubt my error)? I love the master page system for its ab= ility to swiftly apply blanket changes. Is there any consensus on the basic pr= oblem of creating a flexible layout or do many of you ignore it? =20 =20 David Owen :: Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains :: =20 http://www.ineedwebhosting.co.uk :: http://www.ineedwebhosting.co.uk/bl= og =20 =20 =20 =20

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<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Box model and master pages </TITLE>
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Yes I= don’t like to ‘promote’ the old table way of doing things &#821= 1; but in many ways its seems an easy way to get to some of these things unt= il the whole CSS positioned and nested approach is grasped. Walter and other= s used to be famous for the howto of liquid flexible design in Freeway using= tables – but I don’t know if that kind of information is readily avai= lable or not. But the wind blows different now – and there’s as = much kudos in table based approach to web sites now as maybe buying a Mac in= 1998. (that’s when I came in ;-)<BR> <BR> But it also depends on what you want and what you want it for. <BR> <BR> I do have the sense that because everyone talks and assumes the way to go i= s CSS positioned and sometimes including box model layout – that newbi= es coming in don’t know that they can just do simple things that simply work= with tables.<BR> I think its different if seeking commercial web design work. To be seen as = working in table based mode may be seen as backward and unacceptable to thos= e who for whatever reason do not want table based layout.<BR> <BR> But not everyone wants to know how their site is served – some just w= ant it to work and to feel good about it and not take more of their budget t= han it has to.<BR> <BR> all the best<BR> Brian<BR> <BR> <BR> David Owen said recently:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Pete,<BR> <BR> The box model is not just for increased text size issue.  But also whe= n producing dynamic sites where the designer does not know ultimately how mu= ch text is to be included in the final page.  Pushing footers down and = the like.  Thus making a page design flexible for just about every poss= ibility by using the box model.   And I think there is also quite = bit of designer kudos in making sites this way ;-).   But It can b= e done with tables.<BR> <BR> Unfortunately the Master pages don’t work well with full box model pages as= each element is inline.   The benefits can start when you use CSS= styles to manage the box model rather than Master pages, but then it become= s less Freeway like. But the div box content still does not update from mast= er pages.<BR> <BR> Lets hope Softpress find a sensible way forward to approach this problem of= Master pages and box model.<BR> <BR> I do think its very much worth you designing and learning how the box model= works and CSS together. Nearly all the site we do are this way, all or in p= art. As a result I ignore Freeways Master pages, and make php includes inste= ad for frequent content.<BR> <BR> At least if you know both ways of working, you can make a better informed d= ecision which one to use for a site, and where in it.<BR> <BR> David<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> On 26 Jan 2009, at 17:45, petemac wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Is the box model the only way to combat the menace of i= ncreased text size? Is there a way to make master pages that update their bo= x model slaves automatically (tried the Simple Include action which I didn’t= find simple or Inclusive - no doubt my error)? I love the master page syste= m for its ability to swiftly apply blanket changes. Is there any consensus o= n the basic problem of creating a flexible layout or do many of you ignore i= t? <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>  <BR> David Owen  ::   Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains &n= bsp;::<BR> <BR> http://www.ineedwebhosting.co.uk=  ::  http://w= ww.ineedwebhosting.co.uk/blog<BR>  <BR> <BR> <BR> <HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D”3” WIDTH=3D”95%”>___________________________________= ____________<BR> freewaytalk mailing list<BR> [email protected]<BR> Update your subscriptions at:<BR> http://freewaytalk.net/pers= on/options<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BODY>

FeebleEagle

27 Jan 2009, 2:37 am

Hopefully the head-ache didn’t come from the video. What do you think would help people better understand the entire box-model process? Would it be building a sample box-model site over a series of screen-cast’s or would it be beneficial to show basic layout’s for box model built sites?

I’m looking to re-do a few of my past cast’s now that my hardware is better suited for such a thing and wouldn’t mind some feedback on how I can make them better and easier to understand.

petemac

27 Jan 2009, 10:07 am

Thanks for all your thoughts.

The point about length as well as size of text is well made. That aspect of setting up a page master works fine for me - it’s just that the applying changes to inline content like text and menus would be great. I see Dan has a video about CSS styled rollovers which I did watch and will have to watch another half dozen times to get my head round it. As you say David, that sort of code tinkering seems to negate the Freeway ethic of DTP-like WYSYWIG layout. Still, I’ll see what i can do.

Bin-Ra, I got my first Mac (G3 desktop) in late 97 and know what you mean.

Dan, your vids were great and moved me on very well. The headache is the advance planning necessary with the box model technique. I expect it becomes second nature after a while but it’s a bit like building a house and trying to second-guess how the occupants will use it.

Ian Halstead

27 Jan 2009, 12:25 pm

A little trick for getting more complex layouts running, is to work a combination if inline and ordinary positional CSS. For example, a complex footer can be built by drawing out all the elements as children of an overall ‘footer’ box. These ordinary CSS items become positioned relative to the parent box, by drawing them within the parent box in the first place. When done, cut the parent box and paste it inline in your layout when you are ready. Result? If the parent box gets pushed down the contents go with it, but are not in themselves inline items. By ‘sectioning’ up a site like this, you can later cut and paste the parent boxes when you are ready to get everything working inline.

As an example, see http://www.beerhouse.co.uk/peoplecarriersfo.php

The footer section containing the rollovers and navigation at the bottom is done this way. There is no inline working within the parent footer box.

Insanity is hereditary. Your children pass it on to you.

Ian Halstead, web, graphics & artwork

http://www.ianhalstead.com

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Nasir Abbas

14 May 2020, 11:41 pm

In order to set the width and height of an element correctly in all browsers, you need to know how the box model works.

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